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From: "Frank Brand" <fbrand at uq.net.au>
To: <general at lists.humbug.org.au>
Subject: Re: [H-GEN] The Gates Retirement Fund
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[ Humbug *General* list - semi-serious discussions about Humbug and  ]
[ Unix-related topics.  Please observe the list's charter.           ]
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>As a matter of fact, I DON'T KNOW IT.  Yes, some of the things you say are
>issues for some people, but don't go painting all of us with the same
>brush.  What I do know is that MS is NOT the B all and end all.  Linux has
>come a long way lately, as has Mac OSX.

I am not painting everybody my point is more about the general...the average
clerical worker, not the specific user.


I have never said that Windows or MS was the "B all and end all".

I have never said that Linux has not come an enormous way not just a long
way an enormous way.

I remember the early days when word processing options were Vi and Emacs
(Chris Biggs will probably say thats one too many) and apps were few and far
between (their was no spreadsheet option and presentations, unheard of) and
I don't want to be painted into an MS corner. You are really extending my
point that is that it is difficult for most offices to avoid MS and that
apps are the major drawback. You are a developer with, apparently, simple
Office app needs and game needs. For servers and development I think it
would be difficult to get a better platform than Linux. Lots of tools with
low or no cost, a good CLI. Do you run Excel spreadsheets or Word docs with
macros for instance (I have seen lots of low level clerical staff running
Excel spreadsheets with macros, do you run accounting packages...simple ones
not even the more complex packages. Is there a Linux package that does
Australian GST - maybe there is but I have not seen it and I suspect if it
exsisted it would be just as proprietory as MS).

Proprietory stuff is proprietory, MS might be a bad example in some ways but
I suspect TOC for a Mac might even be higher than for a Windows box but I am
just guessing.

OK so I can get a Star Office spreadsheet and maybe...maybe...run similar
macros. Telling a company with thousands of docs and spreadsheets and maybe
databases that it is a wise move to just retype all of these (or even
reprocess them) in order to use Linux is really just pie in the sky thinking
 ... it is just not going to be viable.

To replace Win/Office on the desktop I do not think it will be sufficient
just to prove it is possible for advanced users and really, if you have
anything other than fairly rudimentary Office requirements it would be quite
difficult. To overcome the existing knowledge base, document base etc. just
being as good might not be good enough. Solicitors kept WordPerfect for
years just so they didn't have to upgrade their document base.

>At home I run Linux as my fileserver and firewall.  This obviously works
>because it's so good at it


My last post indicated exactly that...as a server Linux is more than
competitive (although for all its weaknesses a lot of people still feel
comfortable with IIS). As I said...look at the Netcraft stats...QED. I never
said it wasn't good at it ...it is bloody good at it but your reply tries to
paint me as implying it is not good and thats not an accurate portrayal!
That has never been my point.


>I edit Word, Excel and Powerpoint documents in Staroffice, with no issues
>at all.  I haven't even had complaints from the people I've sent edited
>documents to.  It's also extremely easy to use.  I went straight to
>Staroffice from MS Office, and was productive immediately.  It's a very
>easy to use, powerful system.


I suspect your documents are pretty simple.

>I also play games on my machines.


I am not a game player so it does not come into my area of interest but the
serious game players I know don't use Linux.


>My wife uses OSX (on a really, really ugly lime green iBook, but she likes
>it that way.  Go figure) and she doesn't miss Windows at all.  This is
>someone who REALLY wants her computers to be easy, and even she can handle
>a Unix-based OS.  (One hole in my argument is that she uses MS Office, but
>at least it's not on Windows.  BTW, Michael was right.  OpenOffice is
>being actively developed for OSX, but it's not yet ready).


Well you sort of defeat your own argument there MS on Mac is just as MS as
MS on Windows.


>Last but not least, my entire office works on Linux.  Sure, we're mostly
>programmers, but even the admin staff use Linux.


I wouldn't think your office was typical of the kind of staff I am looking
at. Mostly your Windows needs are pretty minimal and your requirements fit
Linux better than most offices. Your co-workers are very committed computer
users with high skill levels.

>(No, I don't want to attack you personally Frank, but I disagree with your
>point very strongly)


People not sharing my views is common...don't feel badly about that. One of
the great advantages of the Linux Community is its diversity and I welcome
discussion like this. Sitting back pissing in each others pockets about how
fantastically we are penetrating 5% of the market is not really going to do
much at all.


I wonder whether Michael Anthon thinks he could wean Poopers off Windows
now. They did use IBM stuff for all their office requirements but I think
they are on Win now...could they go back to IBM or go to Linux. Is the
software available...especially the specialist financial stuff?


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