[H-GEN] Big ticket spending [was: The lca movie.]

matheist76 at westnet.com.au matheist76 at westnet.com.au
Thu Jun 25 22:27:13 EDT 2009


Greg or for that matter anyone else,
                                    would you like to do a talk? I have a number of idea on the HUMBUG wiki for people to chose from. Please. I really need people to set about doing at least one talk. 

Matthew Franklin (Talk Maintainer)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Black" <gjb at yaxom.com>
To: "Mark Ellem" <mark at colmiga.org>
Cc: general at lists.humbug.org.au
Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 9:08:01 AM GMT +10:00 Brisbane
Subject: Re: [H-GEN] Big ticket spending [was: The lca movie.]

[ Humbug *General* list - semi-serious discussions about Humbug and     ]
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On 2009-06-26, Mark Ellem wrote:
> On 22/6/09 10:17 AM, Greg Black wrote:
>> 
>> I have seen various discussions recently which seem to suggest that
>> there is a plan, or maybe a possible plan, to purchase a video camera
>> (and possibly other supporting equipment) by Humbug and this message
>> reminded me of that.
>> 
>> Given that Humbug is a non-profit organisation with a very limited
>> budget (based most years on membership fees of only $20/year), it seems
>> to me that any proposal to even consider a big dollar purchase of this
>> type should have wide discussion and should not be considered unless
>> there is widespread support amongst the membership.  To date, I have
>> seen no attempt to gauge support or to include the membership in the
>> process of deliberation.
> 
> HUMBUG has no intention of spending 'big dollar' amounts of money on A/V 
> equipment. The camera that I purchased for HUMBUG to consider is $299. 
> That said, it was purchased in consultation with other executive 
> members, and if HUMBUG chooses it does not wish to purchase the camera I 
> have means of parting with it in other ways. There would be around 
> another $300 spent on A/V equipment to complete the setup.

Thanks for that clarification of the proposed budget.  I had seen
various figures bandied about previously, but perhaps some of them were
from ill-informed sources.

> The benefits of recording talks and learning A/V to the membership I 
> feel justify the small investment.

I have seen no evidence of these benefits.  On the topic of talks, I
know there are plans to develop some kind of regular talks programme (as
indeed there have been such plans for at least ten years), but at this
stage the situation is that we rarely have talks at all and the ones we
do have seem to be of quite variable standard.  I can't imagine that I
would ever have wanted to watch an amateur video of one of the talks
I've seen at Humbug meetings.  Attending a live talk, having the
opportunity to ask questions and engage with the speaker is one thing,
but watching videos seems uninteresting to me.

The other benefit of providing an outlet for members who want to learn
the use of A/V equipment strikes me as something that would need wider
discussion in the club before we invested in it.  I haven't seen the
club purchase computers for members to learn about setting up open
source operating systems or applications and I'm not sure why the club
would purchase A/V equipment for such a purpose.

I'm not saying that either of these are in themselves invalid reasons,
but I don't think they are in any way sufficiently persuasive to use as
justification for this purchase until the club as a whole has discussed
the ideas and reached some kind of consensus.

> There was talk of spending upwards of $2000 on A/V, a cost an 
> organization like HUMBUG could absolutely not justify and I would now 
> not support.

Excellent.

> A side note. Although I don't wish to sound like we are 'rolling in 
> dough' and we can go on a spending spree, HUMBUG is not exactly poor 
> financially. The outlay proposed above would only make a tiny dent in 
> HUMBUG's finances. Before we purchase the rest of the equipment, we 
> shall be seeking funding from other organizations to help offset the 
> investment.

That's nice to know, but part of my concern is that the membership has
more or less no information about the state of the finances.  I think
there should be a report from the Exec at least every second meeting
(but preferably every meeting) that reports on such matters as the
current balance of funds, and provides a summary of income and expenses
since the previous report.  This would also be the time to mention
anticipated expenditure.  Such reporting is a part of pretty much every
non-profit body I've been associated with and I think it's a desirable
thing.

> The reason the camera was bought now was because the 
> discount offered from original selling price was too good to refuse.

I think we all know that this is simply invalid as a reason for such a
purchase.  How do you get a better price on tech gear?  Buy it tomorrow
has been the answer for at least 25 years.  Rushing into a purchase
before doing the other parts of the decision-making is simply not the
best way to manage anything.

> It 
> was done to ensure HUMBUG did not spend 'big dollar' amounts on A/V.

This sentence makes it appear that my concerns about possibly spending
big dollar amounts was justified.  Perhaps it was really just a bit of
hyperbole in the excitement of dealing with my concerns.

>> While it is true that people can have fun with video cameras, it is not
>> at all clear to me that any of the goals of Humbug would be advanced by
>> such a purchase.  I feel that this project should be stopped in its
>> tracks until the reasons and benefits and costs have been presented to
>> the whole club for discussion and endorsement (or not).
>> 
>> As far as I can see, the only way in which such a purchase could be
>> contemplated would be if it was sponsored by some commercial body who
>> saw some benefit in doing that.
> 
> Again, you are assuming the cost would be 'big dollar'.

Not so much assuming as concerned that it could become a big dollar
thing -- in the absence of actual information.

It is the lack of knowledge about the actual plans that prompted my
original message.  I was concerned that insufficient discussion had
taken place and wanted to help ensure that some useful discussion would
happen.  I think that goal has been partially met.

> I recall the 
> purchase of upgraded networking equipment we use at our meetings, an 
> outlay of a few hundred dollars. It seemed to be a worthwhile investment 
> and I do not recall any talk of getting commercial sponsorship for it 
> due to the 'big dollar' cost.

I don't recall any discussion in the wider club about that expenditure
before it happened.  Perhaps I just wasn't paying attention, although I
am usually a person who pays quite good attention to what's going on
around me.  Given that the purchase is in the past, there's little point
in re-hashing that decision now.  In fact, I think it should have been
put to the club at a meeting (as part of one of those treasurer's
reports I suggested above) and should have been discussed and approved.

Just for the record, had it been proposed in that way and had the budget
been shown to be available, I would certainly have voted for it on the
basis that such equipment has generally been seen as part of what Humbug
does and updating of that kind of equipment is normal.

The A/V equipment, on the other hand, represents a new venture for
Humbug and so needs to be considered as such before commitments are
made.

> One of my goals as Vice President is to find new ways to share 
> information to members and progress the club. I feel a talks agenda 
> (being worked on by our talks maintainer), coupled with recording the 
> talks for posting to our website (something that's going to be worked on 
> soon) would immensely benefit our membership and help open our group to 
> new members.

I am pleased about your ideas, Mark, and I think that in general they
will make things move forward.  I have long believed that good talks
would be a fine addition to the regular meetings, but I also recognise
that it is difficult to get people to volunteer and it is difficult to
get talks pitched at the Humbug audience (which is extremely diverse in
terms of experience, skills, etc.)  In recent years, we have had very
few talks and they have been a bit of a mixed bag.  I personally believe
that we need to focus on establishing a working roster of talks that
engage the members before we even think about recording them.

In addition, even if we assume that the cheap equipment proposed and the
amateur operation of the equipment was capable of producing recordings
that were worth watching, I'm afraid that I'd be against the idea in any
case.  It seems to me that one of the salient virtues of Humbug meetings
is the opportunity they provide members for regular face-to-face time
with other humans who share at least some of their interests.  To
further that end, I think that a programme of good talks at meetings
would be useful as part of an overall objective of getting more people
along regularly.  If we put the talks up on the web, then they no longer
provide any incentive for people to get out and meet up in real life.

It's a different thing when it comes to providing videos of talks at big
conferences -- by definition, not everybody can get to every conference
and the videos can provide some benefit to those who (for reasons of
distance, money, work or family commitments) cannot attend.  Humbug
meetings are different -- they happen every two weeks, cost little to
attend, and are more or less always available.  I'd like to see any
talks programme be a benefit to the people who turn up in person.

> I greatly respect your opinion Greg and the fact you are a long time 
> member. That said, I feel you are jumping to conclusions.

Indeed, I was jumping to conclusions.  And I still am.  But that's
largely in the absence of information, and it's that lack of information
that I'm hoping to see addressed with this whole thread.

None of what I've said, previously or in this message, is intended as
any kind of attack on anybody in Humbug -- there is some criticism, but
it's not personal and it's aimed at being constructive.  I've never been
in a position to stand for election to the Humbug exec (and of course I
might never have been elected if I had stood), but as a long term member
I do try to contribute to Humbug when and where I can.  This discussion
is just one of those contributions.

I don't expect everybody to agree with me and I don't mind at all if
nobody agrees with me -- just so long as the proposed purchase of A/V
equipment and the reasons for the purchase are discussed in the open so
that all members have an opportunity to provide input into the decision.

>> Anyway, I would really like to see some discussion by club members
>> before this horse gets out of the barn.
> 
> Me too.

I think we are seeing that now.  I'd like to thank Mark for taking the
time to provide detailed answers to many of the points I had made and I
hope everybody is now better informed about this issue.

Cheers, Greg
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