[H-GEN] Re: Unix vs NT [long; both informative and then religious]

[Byron Ellacott]

(Note reply-to: being general at humbug.org.au vs "Byron Ellacott" <bellacott at hotmail.com>)

> > definately check that /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward has a 1 in it.
>From what I can see .... that file exists but is totally blank

welcome to magicalfluffyland.

/proc is a ``special'' filesystem -- the ``files'' within it are
directly linked to kernel driver code; when you write a kernel driver,
you typically provide a read (and maybe a write) method for a file in
/proc.

So, when you echo 1 into that file, you are not actually creating a
file, or modifying the contents of a file, but rather you are writing
a value to a function in kernelspace.  This may sound arcane and
kludgy, but consider how easy it is to talk to device drivers in NT.
>From a developers point of view (and yes, I have done kernel driver
development) this is a beautiful model.

So make sure you've done the ``echo 1 > /proc/whatever'' -- checking
the contents of that file isn't a way to do that.

>Why the "SIOCADDRT:Invalid argument" when I run the route add -net"
>command ?

*usually* this means you're using either a 2.0 or a 2.2 kernel, but
you're using the network tools for the *other* version.  So you
might have your wizzbang Mandhat 6.0 install, with the latest 2.2
kernel, but with the old 2.0 tools.

Of course, this also happens when you've not compiled in support for
whatever functionality you're trying to access.

>nahhhhh .... normally I don't have to bother with a subnet entry on ppp0
>interface ....... do I need to with this setup ??

what do you mean by "subnet entry" ?

you do not have to issue a "route -net <blah>" command for your ppp device, 
as there is no actual network there to route to, it is a peer to peer 
connection.  Add a (default) route to the other peer, and your packets will 
travel happily on their way.

Make sure you add a network entry for eth0, however, as you will want to be 
delivering packets to specific machines on a generic network, not routing 
all packets through a gateway.


-- begin part jiko shouldn't read --

redhat sucks, it is the NT of linux[0].
mandrake is redhat, with a different name[1]
SuSE is redhat, with a different name[2]

-- end part jiko shouldn't read --

I feel better. :)

-- begin advocacy/religious part --

disclaimer: the contents of this part are entirely subjective, and you will 
disagree.

During the course of this thread, I have noticed you continually bemoaning a 
lack of documentation for Linux and Unix in general, and also complaining 
about the difficulties of using *nix.  On one level, I agree.  Linux is not 
an operating system that is easily mastered, and the efforts to make it more 
desirable to the masses is, I feel, are wasted efforts.

Windows makes a great workstation -- when something goes wrong, you reboot 
it.  If it still doesn't work, you reinstall it.  It looks pretty.  Users 
can pretend they're good with computers because they can click on stuff.

Linux makes a great workstation for the IT competent.  But, when something 
goes wrong, you *need* to know what you're doing.  If you don't have an 
understanding of how the operating system works, all you can do is reboot 
and reinstall.  Or complain about a lack of documentation.

Let's compare to cars[3].  I don't have a car.  When I get a car, I won't 
care how it works -- I have some idea, but that was learned sheerly by 
accident.  I'll drive it, and when it breaks, I'll get someone to fix it for 
me.  However, some people I know are passionate about their cars, and they 
understand how they work.  They get the best performance out of their cars, 
and their cars tend to run smoothly and rarely need fixups.

You may think, ``what an idiot he is, using something without knowing how it 
works.''  But when it comes to cars, I am a user, nothing more.  My 
fictional friends are probably auto mechanics, or hobbyists.  I'd trust them 
to look at my car for me.

Let's translate this to computers.  Your typical NT administrator has 
clicked a few things and gone ``ahh, clicking that produces this result.''  
They're a user.  When NT breaks, they don't know what to do, and usually 
call techsupport or something similar.  I don't trust them with my 
computers.  Most people on this list, however, are either computer 
professionals or passionate hobbyists.  They understand how things work, and 
I trust most of them with my computer (although usually I am capable of 
fixing the problems myself).

Yes, I have a point.

1. The documentation for Linux is aimed at two target audiences.  The first 
is the moron who's heard about that Lunix operation system.  I ignore that 
documentation, it's written by morons more often than not[4].  The second 
kind is the competent administrator.  Technical terms can be used, and the 
information can be presented clearly and effectively.  An example is a man 
page for printf(3):

SYNOPSIS
       #include <stdio.h>

       int printf(const char *format, ...);
       int fprintf(FILE *stream, const char *format, ...);
       int sprintf(char *str, const char *format, ...);
       int snprintf(char *str, size_t size, const  char  *format,
       ...

I know C, so this all makes perfect sense to me.  printf() takes a string 
format, and a variable number of arguments, presumably determined by the 
format string.  I can then read on to find out what the format string should 
contain.

If I did not know C, this would be meaningless garble, and I could blame the 
documentation for being bad, or I could learn C.

*GO LEARN ABOUT ROUTING ET AL*

then I'll take you seriously.

-- end advocacy/religious part --

---
bje

my opinions are my own; yours are wrong.

[0] technical and philosophical grounds for this.
[1] there are several hundred distributions, largely just redhat with
    a new label.
[2] or commercial X servers.
[3] *duck*
[4] yes, this is bigotry.


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