[H-GEN] blogs, lists, forums [was: software runs the world]

Byron Ellacott bje at apnic.net
Sun Mar 20 18:17:31 EST 2005


On 19/03/2005, at 4:05 PM, Greg Black wrote:
> My take on the use of lists versus newsgroups versus blogs is a
> bit different.  I think Usenet has had its day (and I stopped
> using it in 1995).  I think lists still work and are excellent
> for discussions.  For me a blog is a place where I get to rant
> about anything that takes my fancy, regardless of its relevance
> to anybody else, whereas on a list I limit myself to "on-topic"
> matter and usually to responses to requests from other members
> of the list.

Also, a blog is significantly easier to set up than a mailing list.  
While there are a handful of free hosts for mailing lists, they will 
typically cram so much shit into your message that the signal/noise 
ratio is intolerable.  The same goes for forum software -- you can run 
a web server on the end of a home cable link, but many cable providers 
are now blocking port 25.

(Incidentally, I had a stack of spam in my INBOX today generated by a 
forum system that was exploited; setting up forum software is, or will 
be, just as risky as running a mail server.)

> I have commented previously on one of the Humbug lists that I
> don't think it's kosher to respond to a list message with an
> item in a blog -- if the discussion began as a discussion on a
> list, that's really where it belongs.

I would agree, except where the response is not a contribution to the 
discussion but rather a point of interest to the blog author, 
generated, triggered or reminded by the discussion.  Which is the 
exception I claim for when I did this very thing. :)

> On 2005-03-18, Jason Parker-Burlingham wrote:
>> I don't think I have ever seen a deeply nested discussion on a blog.

For anyone for whom this is false, check out 
http://terranova.blogs.com/.  It's a group blog by and for MMO game 
developers, primarily those interested in the World aspect of MMOs, 
rather than the Game aspect (think: Metaverse vs AD&D), but typically 
the comments will run long.

Contrast it to the MUD-Dev list 
(http://kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev/), which has many of the same 
subscribers, and a somewhat different focus; the discussions are 
typically the same length, but the topic selection is open to a much 
broader group.

And consider that discussion is more and more becoming a thing of the 
past.  With the frantic flow of information available to the modern 
Internet user, there will quickly be a new and fresh subject to grab 
the attention -- who cares what those crotchety old guys are rambling 
on about, this is NEW and EXCITING!

> I have, and some of them have been very good, although this is
> only true of one blog that I follow with any real interest.
> However, although the discussions are very interesting, the blog
> software sucks rocks and makes the mental effort of threading
> the discussions *very* difficult.  So, although it's possible,
> it's more difficult than it should be if it's to be a success.

And this is true of Terra Nova -- the comment system is very plain.  
Note that Slashdot is a blog, and has a fairly effective threaded 
comment system.  I would argue that few blogs need this level of 
sophistication.

> mailing lists I run for them.  I'm not interested.  All web
> forums suck for two reasons:  the software sucks completely and
> makes them really painful to use; and the people who are willing
> to use this crap are so stupid that there's no content anyway.
> There are probably a few exceptions to that, but they're so rare
> that they just don;t count.

As has been noted, forums often fill the role of newsgroups.  Sticking 
with the MMO theme, consider the community forums most MMOs provide.  
The volume of discussion in these systems makes them entirely unsuited 
to mailing lists -- I certainly don't want my INBOX filling with the 
junk that flows there.  While the MMO providers could set up news 
servers, it is a reality that Usenet has been largely abandoned by the 
world; there is a dearth of modern software to provide and access the 
service.  The cost of administration and tech support for such a 
service would be relatively high.  Also, there are a few concepts in 
forums that are not (to my knowledge) available to NNTP: sticky posts, 
admin-only topics, virtual forums and polls come to mind.

Similarly, forums can help support a small community.  I host a set of 
forums for my World of Warcraft guild, because the mailing list saw 
very little use.  The forums are a good fit to our communication needs, 
and I can tie them into my guild management system to provide character 
lists, guild roster information and (someday) event co-ordination.

I would like to change direction here a little, and note that the move 
from mailing lists and newsgroups to blogs and forums is part of a 
larger movement to the Intarweb -- a world in which the bulk of 
software is available through a browser.  Currently, the technology 
available to such software is quite poor -- HTML 4 does not offer a 
great deal.  However, the browser is the platform of choice in many 
ways and for many reasons (cf. 
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html for example) and 
there are several competing technologies emerging to help overcome the 
sheer suckiness of current Web software.

As a result, I expect that blogs will become better at supporting 
discussions, and forum software will become more usable and feature 
rich.  Accessibility is still an issue, since many developers and 
designers are simply unaware of or unwilling to consider the subject.  
Still, for an MMO forum, it's unlikely that people with serious vision 
problems are going to be there in the first place. ;)

(Another aside:  I've no idea any more what my mailer is going to do 
with my email.  Will it word wrap, or will the users of older software 
suffer the one long line syndrome?  What headers will it stuff?  And, 
alas, the answer to these questions is: unless someone specifically 
asks me to correct some behaviour, I -just- -don't- -care- anymore.)

-- 
bje





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