[H-GEN] Re: Unix vs NT [long; both informative and then religious]

[Hilton Travis]

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Hi,

> When one has acquired a library of stuff that would equip a small
> university and has been trying for some years to make sense out of the
> available documentation there is obviously something lacking in the
> way concepts are presented  -----  how acceptable would an operators
> manual be for any other technical device on this the planet if it was
> as obtuse and uninformative as the typical MAN / HOWTO ??

Or does this just imply that the person reading the documentation
A) Does not have the mental capacity to understand it, or
B) Does not really _want_ to understand the documentation?

> The proof that many people find this stuff extremely difficult to
> comprehend is seen in the number of publications available in
> bookshops and the number of newsgroups devoted to various aspects of
> the *nixes. Its informative to monitor some of these lists and note
> the number of newbies who disappear after a very short time ....
> probably due to frustration at not getting anywhere with resolving
> even the most basic issues. Maybe the faithful accept this as
> acceptable ..... maybe its even seen as desirable (after all
> we don't want too many of those dreaded newbies actually figuring
> this stuff out !!!! .... or at least not without experiencing as
> much trauma as possible)

Have you not seen the ridiculous number of Windows 95/98/NT books that
are available?  Also, have you not seen the general "Windows product
for dummies", or the "Complete idiot's guide to Windows" books?  There
are far more of this kind of soft-food only introductory book for
Windows users than for Unix/Linux users.

This says to me that Windows users in general are happy to read an
introductory book and stay at this "I know a bit now, and I am happy"
level.  This I have also noticed from experience as a computer tech
for the past god only knows how many years.

There has never been a "Unix System Administration for those who
don't really want to get their hands dirty" book.  Nor has there been
a "Windows NT Server System Administration for those who don't want
to get their hands dirty" book.  I don't imagine ever seeing one
either.  Is this what you are after?

> Consider the number of newbies who purchased those "APC Linux
> Pocketbooks" a few months ago ...... how many of them would have
> done so if there wasn't a nice simple instruction booklet and a
> GUI version of Redhat 5.2 included ??
> ..... after all the linux O/S complete with HOWTO's has been
> available free on the net since the dawn of time

Yes.  Most of the people who were introduced to Linux by the APC
Pocketbooks are people who are sick of the inconsistencies of the
various Microsoft Windows operating systems, and they needed to
keep in their comfort zone with a GUI-based Linux.

I personally have had a fair bit of Microsoft DOS and Windows 95/98/NT
experience, as well as the Amiga computers, and I hate the introduction of
the GUI-based administration of networks provided by (forced by) Microsoft.
When I was regularly using Amigas, I rarely used the GUI - I stuck to the
CLI as it was easier to manipulate the computer from the CLI than the GUI -
this is not a comment on the Amiga CLI/GUI, but CLIs and GUIs in general.
If I wanted to point and click and have it all done for me, I wouldn't have
tried to understand the operating system - I would have been comfortable
being a "user".

The further Microsoft takes System Administrators away from the CLI the
harder it will be for Sysadmin's to understand what is really going on, and
therefore the harder it will be for them to be able to diagnose and fix
things properly.

Plug and Play is in the same boat - it was so much easier to configure a
legacy system than it is a plug and play system.  I'm talking about when
things go wrong - not when all is rosy.  It's easy to configure a basic
system, but it takes knowledge and willingness to understand to configure or
fix a complex system.

I personally have come back to Linux after a long break.  I have been
working with Microsoft operating systems and operating environments since MS
DOS 2.11 and have quite a decent understanding of their operations.  I
started to put myself through the MCSE certification program - I have the
books here, but stopped doing this when I noticed that a lot of the
nitty-gritty details were glossed over in the standard Microsoft way.  I
decided to get into Linux to learn more about the intricacies of TCP/IP,
routing, firewalls and the like.

I have asked a number of questions of the Humbug members, and have received
enough information to assist me in working out the things I have had a bit
of trouble with.  I will no doubt ask more, and trust I will receive more
helpful information.  Some of my questions may appear to be pretty silly,
but I'm trying to learn!

I have not insulted the members of Humbug by continually telling them that
the Microsoft way is the best way.  Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  I
also haven't accused them of having no lives.  I also haven't continually
insulted the documentation when I, through lack of knowledge, have been
unable to understand it.

I suggest you take a step back, reread your posts, and implement WinProxy in
the meantime.  I can sell you this if you want.  :-)  Then, after reading
the nag and relevant howto and faqs, ask any questions you have, but without
insulting the people you are asking the questions.

Regards,
Hilton Travis


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