[H-GEN] FW: [linux-biz] VBasic vs ??? (was digital noivus system

[TRIGGER Peter (QSO)]

An older thread that may be of interest.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Evan Leibovitch [SMTP:evan at telly.org]
> Sent:	Saturday, March 21, 1998 2:11 AM
> To:	Michael McLay
> Cc:	linux-biz at lege.com
> Subject:	Re: [linux-biz] VBasic vs ??? (was digital noivus system
> 
> On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Michael McLay wrote:
> 
> > Just in case someone has jumped into the middle of this thread,
> here's
> > a short recap.  Comments seem to be in favor of Perl if you like
> Perl,
> > but if you don't like Perl it is because you consider code written
> in
> > Perl to be unmaintainable.  Perl seems to invoke a love it or hate
> it
> > reaction. 
> 
> Perl seems very well suited as a scripting or batch language, as a
> natural
> extension of Bourne Shell scripting and flexibility orders of
> magnitude
> beyond what's available in Windows .BAT files. It seems to be a good
> choice for people who have not yet fully come to terms with OO
> concepts
> (and I submit there are still lots of us^H^Hthem around :-). 
> 
> But that's not totally relevant to the subject at hand (which we can
> recall by just looking at the Subject of the mail on this thread).
> 
> If everyone had to code significant things in Visual Basic by manually
> writing the code, I don't think it would be very well used; what makes
> it
> popular is an easy-to-use RAD tool that, in the MS mind-set, is almost
> inseparable from the language itself. To many, the strength of VB is
> not
> in any inherent superiority of the language itself, but in the
> strength
> and flexibility of its graphical application builder.
> 
> For this reason, I'm confused about the point of this discussion,
> which
> has in some spots turned into a near-religious discussion of favourite
> languages. It seems to ignore that a comparison of
> anything-to-VisualBasic
> requires dealing not with the quality of the language, but the quality
> of
> tools available for those who have just read "Programming for
> Dummies". 
> 
> Want to argue Python vs. Scheme? Great, it's something I would love to
> follow myself. But that debate is irrelevant to the original question
> that
> asked for a reasonable Unix alternative to VB. Such an alternative
> would
> *have* to have a strong, inexpensive, easy-to-use RAD tool.
> 
> > The thread is looking for the Unix equivalent of VB.
> 
> ...which is *not* asking "what's your favourite language" or even
> "what's
> the best language". It's asking what the Unix world has that comes
> close
> to the features *that have made VB popular*. 
> 
> For this reason, I will re-introduce something I suggested at the
> beginning of this thread, that appeared to be dismissed almost as
> quickly
> as it was mentioned; Java. 
> 
> Java seems to have a few things going for it; while parts of the
> language
> (at this point, mainly the add-on libraries) are in flux, enough of a
> language exists to allow development of software such as Lotus eSuite.
> 
> The syntax and typing are nailed down. It also has very significant
> public
> awareness, which is necessary to cope with MS' marketing machine. 
> 
> One thing that Java has, similarly to VB, that the other languages
> mentioned here don't, is an easy-for-dummies inexpensive RAD tool.
> Come to
> think of it, there are a few different ones; Symantec Cafe and Borland
> JBuilder are two that come to mind quickly.
> 
> I've seen Cafe, and it's not very different in concept from VB; it's
> even
> marketed similarly, with different tiers depending on how elaborate
> are
> one's programming needs. I've seen a Lite version included with some
> Java
> books. Then there are always the tools Sun itself provides.
> 
> While the origin of this thread was the announcement by MS that a
> dozen
> or so ISVs would be supporting VB, Java's multi-vendor support is far
> superior. And, unlike VB, I have seen many books on Java that go
> beyond
> the RAD builder into milking the language for all its worth. Java
> seems to
> be a language that one can use to build quick-and-dirty business
> mini-applications (like VB), and then be extended into major
> commercially-
> resellable apps (how many commercial apps today are written in VB?)
> 
> Indeed, some of the criticisms against Java are valid, and I don't see
> it
> replacing Scheme or Python etc. as the tool of choice for many. But I
> am
> advancing the point in *addressing the question at hand*, in advancing
> the
> position that Java is the non-Microsoft world's answer to VB.
> 
> > There are about 10x more power users than programmers so providing
> these
> > users with something better than VB is key to winning them over.  A
> > second reason for the importance of this market is that the power
> users
> > are often the decision makers in selecting computer systems for
> > organizations outside the control of IS.  Now the question we need
> to
> > answer is what makes a language better than VB.
> 
> But that's not the *whole* question! VB isn't popular just because the
> *language* is so darned good, it's because the RAD tools are good
> enough
> to do what most people need. And I have always maintained that
> Microsoft's
> success has come from turn the concept of "good enough" into an art
> form.
> 
> Those of you who are merely debating features of the language are
> missing
> the point that VB's main appeal is in its development tools, not the
> language itself.
> 
> > I am not asking what would a programmer like to see win.  I'm asking
> > what a power user would be willing to use.  Given a choice they will
> > stay with what they know, which is VB.  Whatever comes along to
> > replace it had better be pretty damn close to VB and it had better
> > have some very compelling improvements over VB.
> 
> The main advantages of Java over VB are these, IMO:
> 
> - extensibility/scalability; Java offers more than VB once your
>   skill goes beyond the capabilities of the simple RAD tool. It is
>   well documented and supported from many, MANY different sources and
>   it is inherently Internet-friendly.
> 
> - portability; someone who wants to keep their options open to the
>   possibility of running their code on the smallest Network Computers,
>   the largest Unix systems, everything in-between and practically
>   anything that can run a Web browser, can do so with Java; and
> because of
>   its RAD tools, making such portable tools are no more difficult with
>   Java than with VB.
> 
> - Multiple sources, not just of supporting programmers but supporting
>   tool vendors. With VB one has *one* choice of a RAD tool --
> Microsoft's.
>   With Java, you have a good number of vendors, *including* Microsoft,
>   offering Java development tools. Do you like JBuilder better than
> Cafe?
>   You have such a choice; in VB you don't -- you take what MS gives
> you
>   or you don't use it.
>   
> Note I am *not* talking about things such as garbage collection or
> strong
> typing or other such language intricacies. Most people who use VB,
> these
> so-called non-programmer power users, don't care about these things;
> so
> talking in these terms won't win them over to anything else. 
> 
> > This new language had better be as easy to learn as VB and it must
> > also supported a rich set of very high level objects just like VB.
> 
> I believe Java satisfies this.
> 
> > Having set the stage for what end users want, let me explain why I
> > thing it would be a mistake to pick Perl for this task.  Having to
> > learn something as rich and complex as the Perl grammar rules would
> > get in the way of using the language.  They will want a higher early
> > usage to learning ratio.
> 
> Perl, by and large, serves a different purpose than VB or Java. It's
> not
> OO but it's very powerful batch/scripting language and extremely
> simple to
> use and powerful as a parser/translator. I may be the only one here
> advocating the position that different problems might require
> different
> tools, and that no one language is "best" for everything. 
> 
> But so be it.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada *
> www.xunil.com
>  Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO
> authorized
>               Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems
> 
> 
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